Legislature(1997 - 1998)

04/09/1997 08:06 AM House CRA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS                             
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                      
                         April 9, 1997                                         
                           8:06 a.m.                                           
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Ivan Ivan, Chairman                                            
 Representative Fred Dyson                                                     
 Representative Joe Ryan                                                       
 Representative Jerry Sanders                                                  
 Representative Al Kookesh                                                     
 Representative Reggie Joule                                                   
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Scott Ogan                                                     
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 *HOUSE BILL NO. 224                                                           
 "An Act relating to the employment of prisoners."                             
                                                                               
      - HEARD AND HELD                                                         
                                                                               
 SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 164                                     
 "An Act providing that employment as a legislator or with the                 
 National Education Association is not credited service under the              
 teachers' retirement system; prohibiting membership in the                    
 teachers' retirement system for holders of limited certificates;              
 removing teachers holding limited certificates to teach Alaska                
 Native language or culture from membership in the teachers'                   
 retirement system; and repealing a provision permitting members of            
 the teachers' retirement system to count unused sick leave credit             
 as credited service."                                                         
                                                                               
      - HEARD AND HELD                                                         
                                                                               
 (* First public hearing)                                                      
                                                                               
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
                                                                               
 BILL: HB 224                                                                
 SHORT TITLE: EMPLOYMENT OF PRISONERS                                          
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN BY REQUEST                                 
                                                                               
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG         ACTION                                           
 04/01/97       900    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 04/01/97       900    (H)   CRA, STATE AFFAIRS                                
 04/09/97              (H)   CRA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
                                                                               
 BILL: HB 164                                                                
 SHORT TITLE: TEACHERS RETIREMENT: ELIGIB. & SICK LEAVE                        
 BILL VERSION: SSHB 164                                                        
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) VEZEY                                           
                                                                               
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG         ACTION                                           
 02/27/97       510    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/27/97       510    (H)   CRA, HES, STATE AFFAIRS                           
 03/10/97       607    (H)   SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE INTRODUCED-REFERRALS           
 03/10/97       607    (H)   CRA, HES, STATE AFFAIRS                           
 03/12/97              (H)   CRA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 03/12/97              (H)   MINUTE(CRA)                                       
 03/19/97              (H)   CRA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 03/19/97              (H)   MINUTE(CRA)                                       
 04/02/97              (H)   CRA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 04/02/97              (H)   MINUTE(CRA)                                       
 04/07/97              (H)   CRA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 04/07/97              (H)   MINUTE(CRA)                                       
 04/09/97              (H)   CRA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 DAVID STANCLIFF, Legislative Administrative Assistant                         
 to Representative Scott Ogan                                                  
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 128                                                       
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465- 2338                                                   
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 224                                      
                                                                               
 MARGOT KNUTH, Assistant Attorney General                                      
 Central Office, Criminal Division                                             
 Department of Law                                                             
 Representing the Department of Corrections                                    
 P.O. Box 110300                                                               
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4338                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 224                                      
                                                                               
 LEO LAND                                                                      
 Box 1229                                                                      
 Haines, Alaska  99827                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 766-2466                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 224                                      
                                                                               
 GREG PEASE, Executive Director                                                
 Gastineau Human Services                                                      
 5597 Aisek Street                                                             
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 780-4338                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 224                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY                                                       
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 13                                                        
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3719                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as sponsor of                                  
                      HB 224                                                   
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 97-16, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN IVAN called the House Community and Regional Affairs            
 Standing Committee meeting to order at 8:06 a.m.  Members present             
 at the call to order were Representatives Dyson, Sanders, Ryan and            
 Joule.  Representative Kookesh arrived at 8:07 a.m.  Representative           
 Ogan was absent.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 016                                                                    
 HB 224 - EMPLOYMENT OF PRISONERS                                            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN indicated that the committee would consider HB 224,             
 "An Act relating to the employment of prisoners."                             
                                                                               
 Number 090                                                                    
                                                                               
 DAVID STANCLIFF, Legislative Administrative Assistant to,                     
 Representative Ogan, came forward to testify on HB 224.  He stated            
 that this legislation was borne out of Representative Ogan's                  
 constituent concern that the state of Alaska was not providing                
 enough meaningful activity for their prisoners in the correction              
 system.  The language of this legislation in its present form was             
 provided by the Commissioner of Corrections.  This codifies in law            
 the authority that the Commissioner already has to make prisoners             
 available to communities for work service projects.  Contained                
 therein are minimum criteria the Commissioner felt was necessary to           
 assure public safety.                                                         
                                                                               
 MR. STANCLIFF added that Representative Ogan, by using this vehicle           
 as a starting point, wanted to make clear that the legislature                
 supports work programs and the philosophy that when someone commits           
 a crime, repayment to society is a good principal for both the                
 prisoner and communities.  Half-way houses who now supervise many             
 of the current work programs met with Representative Ogan's staff             
 and the Corrections Commissioner.  These half-way house providers             
 are in the process of making alterations to the present language              
 which Representative Ogan is not opposed to.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 308                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked what community custody meant.                 
 MR. STANCLIFF responded that it was his understanding this term               
 meant while the prisoner is engaged in a work program the community           
 of which they are assigned has custody of him/her.  They are still            
 under the authority of the Department, but the community                      
 establishes a set of custody rules for this prisoner.                         
                                                                               
 Number 389                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if all incarcerated prisoners were under           
 community custody.                                                            
                                                                               
 MR. STANCLIFF responded that all incarcerated prisoners who work in           
 a program such as through a half-way house are part of community              
 custody.  Some of the interested parties want to change this term             
 which has not been used in recent years.  If individuals are in a             
 work detail program, they are under community custody.                        
                                                                               
 Number 435                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if this legislation only applied to                
 prisoners in half-way houses.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. STANCLIFF responded that at this point the answer is yes.  This           
 does not change the current program in effect.  This legislation is           
 to increase what's happening presently.  The Commissioner suggested           
 this language to set out as a minimum standard what the public                
 should expect in terms of minimum, medium custody prisoners and how           
 they would be treated if they were working within the community               
 work program.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 492                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON referred to line 14, page 1, of HB 224 and               
 noted that the term "correctional facility" connotated prison to              
 him but asked if this term included half-way houses.                          
                                                                               
 MR. STANCLIFF responded that prisoners who are released to a half-            
 way house from a correctional facility and then put on a work                 
 detail is typically how the system works.                                     
                                                                               
 Number 529                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON clarified that this legislation did not affect           
 main stream prisoners but those individuals in half-way houses.               
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN commented that in his own community of Akiak they               
 sometimes receive the court ordered community service prisoners who           
 are released to the community and they are required to report                 
 periodically to the court system.  He thought this program ran                
 parallel to what's proposed in this legislation.                              
                                                                               
 MR. STANCLIFF noted that this legislation would give the                      
 Commissioner the authority and the flexibility to exercise either             
 option, the option which Representative Ivan detailed, and it does            
 not tie the Commissioner into working with just half-way house                
 individuals.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 669                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that if indeed the criteria is followed           
 here to provide an armed guard for every five medium or close                 
 custody prisoners it seemed to him that this would take additional            
 personnel with a cost incurred.  He didn't understand the zero                
 fiscal note.  He wondered who would bear the cost of this and                 
 whether the organization who gets the labor done for them is going            
 to be required to pay these extra costs.                                      
                                                                               
 MR. STANCLIFF noted that this was a good point.  Presently there              
 are discussions between the department and the half-way house                 
 providers where this system is already established.  They're                  
 concerned that this would establish a criteria that may incur                 
 additional costs.  Depending on the outcome of these discussions,             
 if there are additional costs, these will be reflected in a future            
 fiscal note.  This is another reason why there is continued                   
 discussion regarding this legislation.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 772                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE asked what the difference between                 
 community custody and furlough was.                                           
                                                                               
 MARGO KNUTH, Department of Law, Criminal Division, came forward to            
 testify on HB 224.  Community custody is when someone has been                
 released to a half-way house and unsupervised employment or                   
 community work service is contemplated in (e)(1).  The Department             
 of Corrections worked with the sponsor to help craft this                     
 legislation.  This bill represents their current policies and                 
 procedures.  Part (2) of this legislation applies to people who are           
 in prisons and jails.  All prisoners are suppose to be productive             
 at least 40 hours a week.  When this productivity is outside of the           
 institution, they already use one staff member to supervise minimum           
 custody details and noted that there was one armed officer for                
 every five medium custody prisoners.  This is why there is a zero             
 fiscal note from the Department of Corrections.                               
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH continued that this legislation codifies the Department             
 of Corrections' current practices.  There is no new fiscal impact             
 for the department.  The half-way houses think that it might cost             
 some money to find jobs and make sure that the people in their                
 custody are either assigned to work detail or community work for 35           
 hours a week.  There are discussions now about whether this                   
 represents a change for them or not.  "We had thought that that's             
 what the policy was and that's what they're doing already.  So,               
 we're just getting some information that maybe that's not so."                
 Number 958                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked if this community custody made the                 
 assumption that these individuals engaged in this community work              
 are currently unemployed and if they are employed will they do                
 community work in addition to paid work.                                      
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that they must do one or the other and be                 
 productive at least 35 hours a week.  If they're employed, this               
 counts.  If they're not employed and they can't find a paying job,            
 this legislation gives the individual the option of conducting                
 community work service as a supplement to any paid employment to              
 work a total of 35 hours or work community service instead if they            
 can't find a job.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 1016                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked if this would apply to those individuals           
 who are not in state correctional institutions, i.e. community                
 prison facilities.                                                            
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that this legislation applies to those who are            
 serving a term of imprisonment which could be in a half-way house,            
 a community correctional center, as opposed to someone who is on              
 parole, probation or furlough.  "If you're not getting credit for             
 time served, so to speak, this bill would not apply to you."  It's            
 only for those individuals who get credit for time served be it               
 through a half-way house or any of their other institutions.                  
                                                                               
 Number 1080                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN noted that it was his understanding that the              
 people in the medium security prisons or half-way houses are                  
 individuals encouraged to continue present employment, to find                
 something on their own and or/do community service.                           
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that this was correct.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1105                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN continued that it seemed the half-way houses              
 "are looking as though there's a cost implied."  It appeared to him           
 that they are looking for another source of funding.  If this is              
 something that's already being done there's no reasonable                     
 assumption...we're not asking them to run an employment agency, are           
 we?                                                                           
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH noted that they were not.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1124                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN added that his questions were about the medium            
 and the close supervision people.  He said he would like to see               
 this legislation enacted.  He wasn't sure if they wanted a "chain-            
 gang" in Alaska, but at the same time he asked what kind of                   
 employment they envisioned for these individuals.                             
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that they have them working on trail                      
 maintenance and there are places where they need fire breaks, so              
 basically it's labor like this where it's easier to supervise the             
 workers, usually in an outdoor environment.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1174                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked if these individuals were normally                  
 confined in a penal institution doing nothing?                                
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH stated that the only time they have individuals sitting             
 around not doing anything is if they are in a particularly                    
 segregated lock down situation for some problem, basically in the             
 hold.  Otherwise, all prisoners in the custody of the state is                
 doing something productive, 40 hours a week.  This assumes there is           
 enough funding for supervision.  She also noted that this applied             
 to both male and female prisoners.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 1273                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that he was skeptical that prisoners              
 are productive 40 hours a week, but he didn't understand the zero             
 fiscal note for prisoners working outside of the correctional                 
 facilities for medium and close custody folks.                                
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that the fiscal note would reflect what                   
 increase and cost this bill creates.  The bill doesn't create an              
 increase in costs because they're performing these tasks already.             
 She encouraged any member of the legislature to come to their                 
 institutions to see what these prisoners are doing and assured the            
 committee that prisoners were kept productive.                                
                                                                               
 Number 1344                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that he inquired of the Department of             
 Transportation (DOT) if it was practical to use prisoners for                 
 clearing right-of-ways.  There is almost none of this going on                
 because of budget constraints and noted problems with overgrown               
 brush on highways.  The DOT has been trying to work with                      
 corrections to do these types of projects and ran into very                   
 practical problems.  The net result was that it wasn't worth their            
 trouble.  He asked for suggestions to address these problems.                 
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that these problems did exist but they needed             
 to do the work to make it work.  In regards to many of these work             
 service situations it would be easier of the departments to do                
 these types of things themselves than to get these individuals to             
 do it but the benefits in the long run are worth it.  The problem             
 will probably always exist of not knowing who is going to be                  
 available for this work.  She thought that government to government           
 coordination is necessary and something that can be achieved.  The            
 Department of Corrections works successfully with Natural Resources           
 with their trail blazing program and the fire break projects.                 
                                                                               
 Number 1524                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON applauded these efforts, but his sense is from           
 overcrowding a classification system of prisoners has been lost               
 which is something that makes this project difficult to accomplish.           
 He suggested that the Department of Corrections is in a better                
 position to make the logistics work such as providing                         
 transportation and making the prisoners lunches.                              
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH stated that the mixed population issue brought up was               
 particularly accurate and insightful for many of the facilities               
 acting partially or almost exclusively as a jail.  These types of             
 programs might work better with facilities that have a more                   
 homogenous population by classification.  She used Ketchikan as an            
 example where they have 65 prisoners that span from maximum custody           
 pretrial to a three day DWI individual.  This could be a problem.             
                                                                               
 Number 1654                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if she meant to infer that they cannot             
 require prisoners to do this type of work.                                    
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded, "not at all."                                            
                                                                               
 Number 1712                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked why they can't know how many people                
 would be available to work on any given day?                                  
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded because of the turnover of the population.  She           
 stated that they cycle 40,000 prisoners a year but on any given day           
 they only have 4,000 in custody.  She outlined the intricate                  
 procedure of moving someone through the system.  Out of the 4,000,            
 she noted that the longer term pool of individuals are those that             
 they should use for these projects.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1720                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked if the 4,000 individuals noted were from           
 just half-way houses.                                                         
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded, "both."  The bill actually goes to both.                 
                                                                               
 Number 1740                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked for clarification about the department             
 "doing" this already and wondered if they do so under regulation.             
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH responded that this was in policies and procedures.  This           
 legislation now before the committee would become a codification              
 that would keep these standards in place regardless of                        
 administration change overs.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1776                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked about groups that are supervised away              
 from a facility.  He wondered if they would need an extra staff               
 person.  He asked if they had enough staff to do this in light of             
 the budget cuts.                                                              
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH noted that this was a good question.  She said she didn't           
 know the answer to it because the Corrections budget this year is             
 extremely large.  It's going to impact the ability to have programs           
 with the amount of supervision necessary.                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1840                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE referred to the fiscal note and stated that              
 while they already do this in policy, in fact, this will probably             
 cost the department money.                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH stated that this program cost money and it's money that's           
 currently spent this way.  If this money is taken away from them              
 this is what makes it difficult but it still isn't a new expense.             
 It's just a new debt.                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 1865                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "I'm getting to feel like I'm in one of           
 those medieval discussions about how many angels can dance on the             
 head of a pin."  He said he didn't understand what the confusion              
 was about.  He said they have administrative practice, the people             
 to set up an administrative program which is what the department              
 does, they transport prisoners, they feed them, etc.  The                     
 department has guards for the prisoners and if a certain portion of           
 the population is gone the people who normally guard them can go              
 along too without an undue hardship.                                          
                                                                               
 MS. KNUTH stated that this was where the difference came in.  It              
 takes more guarding to leave the institution with these prisoners             
 than to keep them in the institutions.  An individual is needed to            
 drive and someone from the department could give numbers on what              
 the staff/prisoner ratio is within the institution and what it is             
 outside.  Right now they do not have two guards for every five                
 prisoners for those in closed custody but one guard for every five.           
 "If you're going to take them out, you're actually doubling the               
 amount of personnel involved there."                                          
 Number 1945                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "it would seem to me that if we were              
 going to do some work that might be done normally by a department             
 that they have a portion in their budget to pay for that work to be           
 done, however they do it previously and if we were to use prison              
 labor that charges could be made for that labor."  This would help            
 compensate and off-set the cost of using this labor.  Just because            
 someone is incarcerated doesn't mean that the fruits of their labor           
 is not worth compensation.  He noted a letter to Representative               
 Dyson from Commissioner Perkins outlining the logistics of using              
 prison labor for the department's projects and compared this                  
 situation to swatting a mosquito, like something annoying that                
 needs to be taken care of.  It's a good idea but nobody wants to              
 take the upper hand to make it work.  He thought it was a good bill           
 and on it's face had value.                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN commended this legislation and noted that there were            
 five levels of custody which must be considered in light of this              
 proposal.  He added that levels of custody are determined through             
 classification hearings and scoring to decide the amount of                   
 supervision which is needed for these folks.  He also noted that              
 there was a lot of work to be done by all the departments involved,           
 along with fiscal note considerations.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 2108                                                                   
                                                                               
 LEO LAND came forward to testify on HB 224.  He stated that he has            
 been a prisoner and a guard.  He noted that they didn't need two or           
 three guards for five prisoners.  During his time of incarceration,           
 for an army infraction, he was guarded by someone with a bayonet              
 who followed him around.  He added that he had no intention of                
 trying to escape and didn't think that most prisoners wanted to do            
 so either.  As to the fiscal note, he thought that the work done on           
 roads, for the Forest Service, etc., done by contractors would be             
 more expensive than paying someone to guard these individuals in a            
 work program.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 2222                                                                   
                                                                               
 GREG PEASE, Executive Director, Gastineau Human Services (GHS),               
 came forward to testify on HB 224.  He stated that this                       
 organization runs the Community Residential Center (CRC) for the              
 Department of Corrections.  He also noted that he was the Regional            
 Vice-President of the International Community Corrections                     
 Association representing half-way house operations (private, for              
 profit, and non-profit) in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana and             
 Alaska.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. PEASE applauded the efforts and the intent of this legislation            
 to take advantage of prison labor in the form of community work               
 service to benefit projects that might go undone in the community             
 settings.  Most of the questions deal with the higher security                
 levels needed.  GHS already does what's in this legislation with              
 over 40,000 hours of community work service around the Juneau area            
 with prisoners in community custody.  He noted how prisoners pick             
 up recycled paper in the capitol almost every day.  He said this              
 was just one of the minor projects they were engaged in.                      
                                                                               
 MR. PEASE stated that they were trying to craft language in this              
 present legislation which would benefit organizations such as GHS.            
 For furloughs right now, prisoners are required to conduct a                  
 minimum of five days of community work service and they have a                
 maximum of 30 days before they have to find gainful employment.               
 This legislation is in addition to this already existing situation,           
 as well as substance abuse treatment, mental health treatment,                
 anger management, vocational rehabilitation, etc.                             
                                                                               
 Number 2330                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked if his organization dealt with close                
 supervision or medium custody individuals?                                    
                                                                               
 MR. PEASE responded that their organization dealt with community              
 custody level individuals.  Lemon Creek individuals will come to              
 their facilities once they've been reclassified to community                  
 custody level.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 2349                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked if Mr. Pease thought that extra officers            
 would be needed to deal with medium to close custody individuals.             
                                                                               
 MR. PEASE responded that this was a risk level.  If prisoners are             
 taken out of the institutions and out in the community with higher            
 risk levels on their classifications then this is a decision that             
 will need to be made.  The reason why there is a standard set for             
 so many guards to so many prisoners is for public safety since                
 these different classifications need to be considered.                        
                                                                               
 Number 2382                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked if prisoners were not classified                    
 according to the sentence they receive.  He asked if there wasn't             
 a criteria used to identify these individuals.                                
                                                                               
 MR. PEASE responded that the classification in addition to the                
 offense was based on how the prisoner has acted inside the                    
 institution and accordingly their risk level may be changed.  He              
 didn't think there was an inherent problem to this classification             
 system and how it's conducted.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 2437                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN stated that he would hold bill House Bill 224 over in           
 committee since there was coordination work to be done by all the             
 parties involved.                                                             
 HB 164 - TEACHERS RETIREMENT: ELIGIB. & SICK LEAVE                          
                                                                               
 Number 2445                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN indicated that the committee would hear HB 164, "An             
 Act providing that employment as a legislator or with the National            
 Education Association is not credited service under the teachers'             
 retirement system; prohibiting membership in the teachers'                    
 retirement system for holders of limited certificates; removing               
 teachers holding limited certificates to teach Alaska Native                  
 language or culture from membership in the teachers' retirement               
 system; and repealing a provision permitting members of the                   
 teachers' retirement system to count unused sick leave credit as              
 credited service."                                                            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN noted that the committee still needed to adopt the              
 committee substitute before them labeled 0-LS0636\L and the                   
 committee would also consider the "amendment to address the, as the           
 original bill was replacing the sick leave credit with this                   
 committee substitute, I believe before you."  This allows the                 
 school districts to determine how sick leave is to be used as a               
 bargaining point for the school districts.                                    
                                                                               
 TAPE 97-16, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH made a motion to move the CS before the                
 committee as previously outlined.  Hearing no objection it was so             
 ordered.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 021                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY came forward to respond to changes made to            
 HB 164.  He stated that he didn't endorse this new version of the             
 legislation.  He also stated that he didn't endorse the amendment             
 although he didn't think it was a bad policy at all.  He thought              
 that the amendment exchanged one type of state mandate for another            
 and the purpose of the legislation is to revert the policy of                 
 benefits that public employees receive; in this case, teachers to             
 a local school district decision making process.  This amendment              
 simply changes the nature of this state mandate without referring             
 it to the local school districts to be negotiated.                            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN noted that it has always been his policy to give as             
 much flexibility to the school districts to determine policy and in           
 this case this would be the sick leave situation.  He thought this            
 new CS would facilitate such a concept.                                       
                                                                               
 Number 083                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "in the CS a, the school district or              
 the university or whom ever, after the effective date of this act,            
 is, people can use the sick leave on a day to day basis and so                
 forth, but a teacher contribution may not be required for credited            
 unused sick leave."  He noted that this places an unnecessary                 
 financial burden upon the local school district since time                    
 accumulated for retirement involves a fixed benefit.  There's a               
 fixed contribution from the employee and the variable is the                  
 employer.  If the employee doesn't contribute then the employer has           
 to bear both sides, both percentages, employee and employer.  To              
 allow sick leave as credit for retirement, he had no problem with,            
 but they shouldn't add the extra burden and extra cost on to the              
 employer.  The employee should make the contribution whatever the             
 percentage is normally for retirement.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 121                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN continued that an individual makes an employee            
 contribution, along with an employer contribution, and a benefit is           
 set up, something he intended to address in this amendment.  In               
 part one of the CS this issue is not addressed, in fact, the                  
 employee's contribution is prohibited and he quoted, "Teacher                 
 contributions may not be required for credited, unused sick leave."           
 On the proposed amendment he has offered an option.  The employee             
 can use the sick leave which by statute is a benefit.  Once a                 
 benefit has been determined it cannot be taken away unless through            
 a negotiating process.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 208                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN called an at ease at 8:58 a.m.  The committee hearing           
 came back on record at 9:00 a.m.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 244                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN reiterated what he attempted to do with this              
 amendment as drafted.  This amendment was labeled "L" version,                
 dated April 7, 1997.  On page 1, line 3, following the word                   
 "credit" insert "or compensation."  A new Section 1 was added on              
 page 1, line 5, which says "Compensation for unused sick leave" and           
 he paraphrased, except for a teacher who receives credited service            
 for accrued sick leave, a school district shall compensate a                  
 teacher who first began employment as a teacher with the district             
 on or after the effective date of this Act.  He explained that it's           
 not retroactive.  They can't go back and "mess" with anybody who              
 has already earned something.  He paraphrased again, ... who                  
 terminates employment with the school district, either by                     
 retirement or otherwise, for accrued sick leave for which the                 
 teacher does not elect to receive credited service, which means               
 they don't want to use this for retirement.  "The amount of                   
 compensation shall be figured using the teacher's average base                
 salary at the time the teacher ended employment."  This is                    
 basically a cash out which is not offered right now.                          
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN continued to explain the second half of the               
 amendment.  A person who has joined a school district after an                
 effective date, they may apply unused sick leave credit by                    
 computing the total number of years of credited service.  They can            
 keep this policy going except for sick leave earned while                     
 participating in an optional university retirement program.  This             
 is a different program under a different statute.  Again, he                  
 paraphrased, a teacher must apply to the administrator no later               
 than one year after appointment to retirement ... shall be credited           
 on a day-for-day basis in accordance with the table for service.              
 A person who elects to receive credited service is indebted to the            
 system.  This establishes that there must be a contribution the               
 same as it would be if someone wanted to buy into military time,              
 etc.  "The amount of the indebtedness is equal to 8.65 percent of             
 the teacher's base salary at the time the teacher retired                     
 multiplied by the credited service the teacher will receive for               
 unused sick leave."  He stated that this was a fixed rate                     
 contribution that employees make for retirement.  This says that a            
 teacher can "keep this up" and they can use it, but they're going             
 to have to make their contribution just like everyone else does.              
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN summarized that this amendment gave individuals           
 two options.  To maintain using sick leave as credited service for            
 purposes of retirement, while making a contribution or, if someone            
 decides to relocate and quit their job, they can cash out their               
 sick leave.  Representative Ryan's amendment in it's entirety is as           
 follows:                                                                      
                                                                               
 Page 1, line 3, following "credit":                                           
 Insert "or compensation"                                                      
                                                                               
 Page 1, following line 5:                                                     
 Insert a new bill section to read:                                            
                                                                               
 "*Section 1.  AS 14.20 is amended by adding a new section to read:            
                                                                               
 Sec. 14.20.225.  Compensation for unused sick leave.  Except for a            
 teacher who receives credited service for accrued sick leave under            
 AS 14.25.115, a school district shall compensate a teacher who                
 first began employment as a teacher with the district on or after             
 the effective date of this Act and who terminates employment with             
 the school district, either by retirement or otherwise, for accrued           
 sick leave for which the teacher does not elect to receive credited           
 service under AS 14.25.115.  The amount of the compensation shall             
 be figured using the teacher's average base salary at the time the            
 teacher ended employment with the district."                                  
                                                                               
 Page 1, line 6:                                                               
 Delete "Section 1"                                                            
 Insert "Sec. 2"                                                               
                                                                               
 Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                             
                                                                               
 Page 2, lines 4 - 12:                                                         
 Delete all material and insert:                                               
                                                                               
 "(d) A teacher who first joins the system on or after the effective           
 date of this Act may elect to apply unused sick leave credit in               
 computing the total number of years of credited service under AS              
 14.25.110(d) except for sick leave earned while participating in              
 the optional university retirement program under AS 14.40.661 -               
 14.40.799.  To obtain service credit for unused sick leave, a                 
 teacher must apply to the administrator no later than one year                
 after appointment to retirement.  Unused sick leave shall be                  
 credited on a day-for-day basis in accordance with the table for              
 service on or after July 1, 1969, contained in AS 14.25.220(43).              
 A teacher who elects to receive credited service under this                   
 subsection is indebted to the system.  The amount of the                      
 indebtedness is equal to 8.65 percent of the teacher's base salary            
 at the time the teacher retired multiplied by the credited service            
 the teacher will receive for unused sick leave."                              
                                                                               
 Page 2, line 21:                                                              
 Delete "2 - 4"                                                                
 Insert "1 and 3 - 5"                                                          
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN asked if there were any objections to the amendment.            
                                                                               
 Number 418                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON objected for discussion purposes.  He stated             
 that he was having a hard time understanding this amendment.  He              
 asked if this amendment requires the individual teacher to make a             
 choice and then a contribution to his/her sick leave if he/she are            
 going to cash it out or use it as credit toward retirement.                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN responded that if they were going to cash it              
 out there was no contribution.  If they planned to use the sick               
 leave as credited services for purposes of retirement they would              
 make a contribution of 8.65 percent of their base salary,                     
 multiplied by the credited service.  He noted that this was in                
 conformity with all the other retirement plans that the state of              
 Alaska offers.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 563                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if the result of this program is that              
 they would get credit for another four months toward a higher                 
 level.  He also asked what public policy would incline them to                
 treat sick leave any more than providing for people to take time              
 off when they're sick without loosing money.  Why should this have            
 a cash value to accentuate the retirement.                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN responded that by statute this is a benefit.              
 A benefit cannot be taken away from someone who's earned this                 
 without compensating them for it.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 603                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if there was anything prohibiting them             
 from having sick leave just be sick leave for all new employees               
 after an effective date.                                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated that he didn't know and thought this was           
 a question for someone involved in labor relations.                           
                                                                               
 Number 627                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN noted that this was a substantial amendment and he              
 wished to hear from Retirement and Benefits.  He stated that he               
 would hold the bill to afford this opportunity.                               
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH agreed with this suggestion.  He understood            
 the intent of this legislation, but he was concerned that if                  
 someone earned sick leave, then it disappears somehow, then they              
 make a contribution payment, it sounds like an individual gets hit            
 twice.  He wished to read this amendment further to understand it             
 better.                                                                       
 Number 672                                                                    
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN IVAN adjourned the meeting at 9:10 a.m.                              
                                                                               

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